Konstantin Adamopoulos

We have to accept that we are on our knees. We are not standing yet.

We are just in the very beginning of being on our knees

a nine month old baby. We want to be a grown up person. We want to get up. We want to talk to all the other adults. We want to change. We want to have an impact on world. We want to be creative. We want all this, but we are still on our knees.

Welcome to Taste Bench. I'm Philip Zahn. My co-host is Bruno Manette, and this is a podcast about taste and the creative side of AI. Our guest today is Konstantin Adamopoulos, a philosopher, art historian, curator, and coach working at the intersection of art and business.

Thanks everyone for joining. and specifically Konstantin our guest today. We are very glad to have you here. Konstantin in a newspaper, I think this is already a while ago, some twenty something years, someone called you a double agent. And that double agent was in the context of your role.

Navigating between the art world, maybe the more commercial side, and also on the on the artist's side. I mean, we know each other for a long time, and I I would basically say, maybe not double agent, but you're you have been playing a similar role and acting a role where you have been navigating the world of let's call it business and the world of art. how would you describe yourself and position yourself? And do you think this is a fair characterization?

Well, it's already a deep question because I realized that for me it was always a middle position, it was always a comfortable place because no one asked me why I'm in the play. So there was acting, creative,

people on both sides that were interested in interaction but hadn't the right tone maybe or were

you

too selfish to ask. And my role always was in between and I was free of

Thank

having a proper position that I have to hold. I was able to be

unseen a little bit. And that was a very easy, good position for me. I realized just

Thank

that some years ago, not that early that you mentioned that article, that 25 years maybe old article of a double agent, which is a very smart position, I guess.

if you know the game and know the roles that you have to play here and there and so on. And actually I did several interviews with artists that were interested in that big field of organizations, businesses, economics. And I asked them why are you interested

being an artist in that scary field in this...

field of

power play. And of course it was the social aspect that the artists were, well, are interested still to,

you

you know, this work division of several areas that have different abilities. connect

in a very smart and clever way to each other. They can

Thank

divide tasks in subtasks and all this is enormously interesting for artists because they, in general, think I have to go through everything. I have to keep the responsibility for each decision. I'm the only...

Holder of of the action if I lose the control it's gone and so there is this Yeah, this Feeling that the others the economics that the people in businesses and so on they they are They have an easy way of life because they can you know share the jobs

Okay.

They can, at least at the end, they don't have any responsibility because the bites and pieces are so small that no one is in

charge. And this is interesting. It's scary. It's funny. It's unbelievable for an artist. And so this was one direction to see that there is

an enormous interest from the business side to these

People with this enormous ego of self-responsibility and responsibility for the whole of their life call it freedom. And this sort of amazing thing in business life, I'm hunting for freedom and I do everything to have more

choices, but at the end it's always connected to numbers, to win or lose. so I'm always in dependencies to others, to circumstances, to whatever, which is a chance in the art world. There are no mistakes. Seriously, not really. They don't matter. There are chances.

the chance to be creative. okay, this is in between this chairs for me it wasn't.

Or it is still a joy. Because both sides are

I see.

very important, at least for creativity. So there is no specific role that I can mention that is my place in this game. think both sides are a little bit suspicious of the other side.

maybe the double role that I try to be in the middle to help them. And it's necessary. I see that. It's a

Yes.

helpful person.

So y you mentioned a couple of things following up. one thing we see in the last five years of AI making this kind of massive progress is that things that were taking a long time and we're basically requiring teams for a long time, large teams, is now much reduced. So in some sense, you know, economically we would say the production function is changing within companies. what this suggests also is there is more

some creativity or potential on individuals. Like people who had relying on a team before now don't have to wait for it. They can show their own initiative. So what you described before, in some sense the artists as having full creativity and full freedom. maybe we see this happening also now in the age of AI. How how how, you know, what's your take on this and how does it change the role of the individuals basically in organizations?

Absolutely right. The position of an artist, as

I described it, is not really something special anymore.

in that specific sense. And as you said, you know, it's more about decisions and about

Thank

the truth of possibilities, which is also with the artist Joseph Beuys a clear thing. Every human is an artist.

So that means you are doing your biography, your decisions, your tasks, and you decide it every day, every second. And this is the new situation. And so let's not talk about artists as something special in opposition to the normal people or whatever.

And this is not really helpful, I think. And especially AI is helping us to redefine and maybe not to redefine, but to get clearer and clearer what our aim or our...

business is as a human.

Especially, it's

What is what is what is it?

all about the processes of perception and awareness.

Okay.

And it's about the beliefs and the needs and the...

the assumptions and all these kind of fears and missed chances and misunderstandings and there

Okay.

blockages, you name it, where the interaction is not working. There, you have the information. Also known since information theory. The

Hmm.

information is not there if everything is clear. There is, you know, it's a zero information level then. You need...

difficulties at least, tension.

Tension.

Yeah.

helps us now that all the other, let's say, defined solutions, and you can call it creative solutions if you want to name that creativity, a change of possibilities. If you accept that as a creative situation, that you just changed something that is

it was green before, then it's yellow, or it was green and now it's upside down, whatever that means. It's different, and the difference is creative. If you accept that as creative, then pass it over to the AI. That's wonderful. That's really helpful. And no one should miss it. It helps.

.

I see.

I'm talking through my cell phone at the moment. I need it. I paid on the organic

Okay. you

market. I paid with my cell phone. So it's basically.

Yeah, the key

Yes.

that I have. And why not using AI? That's not a question anymore. It's the question how far we accept that our tasks are now on the table, on a new way. And that means for me, where are

Hmm.

the unclear

facts or the subconsciousness, all these areas. And there you have to jump out of the box. And you cannot handle it in the dimensions of the box.

Can I ask you yeah, sorry, follow just to interject one thing,

Okay.

because you're a coach and you're you're coaching basically executives, management

.

teams, but also teams, interactions more broadly. and in that process,

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

maybe also as context, two questions because you bring in you

Mm-hmm.

bring in artists into that process, which is very unusual. I think that's not the typical consultation or coaching that you get. So two questions. Can you talk a bit about why you do this, why bring in artists?

Okay.

And then also secondly, I think it ties back to what you said before, the question of AI is changing organizations and also what the coaching is that you are doing basically. And I think no, let you answer and then I basically follow up, not what I think.

To come back to the first

and

part.

Thank you.

What

is the need of these teams or these characters interacting in this specific area, which I life. This is a life coaching thing. You clear all your

Mm-hmm.

assumptions, beliefs, needs, perceptions, awarenesses for hours per day. so I can easily bring it together with love affairs or my family. mean, you know, the same question there. How do I believe

Mm-hmm.

that I understand my family?

and what they need and what I need when I interact with them. I have to clear it every second, every day, every, you know, and on theirs, but also this need of safetyness, of structure, of, you the key is fitting to my door entrance. You know, I don't want to...

have every day a a new key to just to get to my to my apartment so of course i understand this wish of stability of of of a a clear defined frame but actually

. .

There is no. This is an illusion. Life is changing. And all these ideas of it's not enough, we need control, it's good if I have the power, otherwise others have the power over me. All these.

frames that I have to be quicker, time is running.

It's hurting and it's not helping for creative decisions, especially if there is AI. Because if there is a time problem, hand it over to AI. Take your time to define it. Give it over. Hand it over. You know, it remembers me to...

Okay. Okay.

Bob Dylan when he was invited to his first folk festival, the folk festival in the US, and he came up, he showed up with an electric guitar. It was outrageous. The audience was, you know, it was mind-blowing because that was the last

Mm-hmm.

sauber island of good folk blues music.

an electric guitar was the end of, it seemed to be the end of it. after he played it, against all audience actions, the years after he always said, it's my duty to, or it's

Our duty to bring the spirit into the electric guitar. It's not about having an electric guitar or not. It's our work that we have to do there. So, finding the magic.

Finding the magic.

Yeah.

I love how you're pointing at the kind of pretty natural separation between AI being for, I guess, execution of automated streamlined tasks when there's no conflict, when everyone agrees it makes so much sense to just let AI do it, right? And then you could say there's the human realm, which is drama, conflict, love, all those sort of like, you know, the things that goes into deciding what the machine should do, I guess one of the...

One of the big questions that AI is kind of forcing us to ask today is like, when does something stop being just a tool? does it go? For instance, the paintbrush is just a tool. Like paintbrush alone, it's not going to put any paint on the painting, right? AI today is a bit different. It can actually, you you can be a singer and ask the AI to add the drum and it will compose the drum, right? So we're getting to the realm of recreation, judgment, and

In your mind, is there still a fairly clear line you can draw between execution and decision? do you agree there is a new question there?

Well, I don't know if it's really a new question,

but it forces us to think deeper or to go deeper into this stream, this flow of life.

unreal, it seems to be unreal, but it is real that everything is changing and that we are breathing and that we are changing constantly in ourselves, in our bodies and we are, we try to, I mean, I go to the gym, I

think of my diet, whatever.

just to keep me in a.

solid form, which is again an illusion. mean, it's good to be in good condition, of course, and to care. But again, you know, I'm growing older. I have to face this. I have to face this with my family, in my jobs.

I have, you know, I gain something. Why is it maybe? But I lose maybe.

another kind of spirit. And I need other people to add, to make it more complete and to maybe to go through the chaos of that. I mean, of course, there are, yeah, sorry. Bruno?

Yeah. Good.

And what you're pointing at resonates a lot with me because I took into other exec coaches and so on. It seems to be always a very strong focus on relationships between people and the tension. And it seems to be really like a key kind of unlock to say, fix a business or fix a dynamic and so on. I guess one of the fear that people have sometime with AI is the...

there's a tendency to go towards maximal automation, right? Like having VCs now are all looking for this like one person, one billion dollar company where like a single person with just a bunch of AI agents is going to take an entire market and so on. so we're trying to, there's almost a temptation in a way to streamline everything, avoid conflict, having just like single creators push all of that.

I'm wondering like when you're in your role of a coach, like how do you motivate people to keep having conflict or how do you motivate people to this tension in a way instead of taking the simple route and maybe just

There is still this

letting AI decide everything.

wish

to be important. Maybe it's part of our human basic line, but of course, it's, you know, I want to be polite. I don't want to be too loud. We, Germany, we are too quick. The British or the English are that way. you know, all these questions are in the air.

somehow. so

Mm-hmm.

why I bring artists, second question of Philip is after I met all the participators before on video calls just to see what is their play, their game, what is their mindset.

And then I try to find an artist that is in a way in the same situation but in his or her field. So the match is people that are in the same mindset but different. the intention is that

We have to realize that we need each other in our pure sense, not in the polite, in the function, but in a deeper sense of weird,

Hmm.

chaotic whatever, heartful, joyful, enthusiastic way, sad way.

in a pity way, in a broken way, whatever, this is helping to make it more complete, to realize, are we on the right track? Can we really go this way? Can I do a proper decision? Do I understand? Take a tree.

are around a tree as a group of 12, we see 12 different things. At least because our view is behind the tree and behind the group, we see something else in the backyard.

If I talk about the green stuff on the

Hmm.

tree, you are thinking I'm crazy because on your side, of course, it's proper brown because it's the weather side. all these things are so

Mm-hmm.

exciting and so exciting that we try to save ourselves from all these irregular, chaotic differences.

This is what I tried to to invite with the workshops, a situation where we can go through this chaotic differences and get a joyful sense for the differences and for the brokenness of the participators, because this is the source.

. Okay.

the not knowing and the not being able to. It's not the power over

Hmm.

something, it's maximum, it's the power with something that invites what I call creativity.

Coming back to creativity. So you before you basically said talking about artists. They have they know the struggle, right? They know that they have to start over and over again. have many drafts possibly before they get something. Maybe also because the idea is not clear, the idea has to evolve. Given what has happened with AI, many more people are in this position to, you know, vibe-code things fast. there is now basically this this thing where we have a graveyard and individuals feel this, I think, graveyard of experiments.

And they don't know they're drowning in this, basically.

How it's hard to ask for a recommendation, maybe this is also the wrong word, but what would you give these people as an impetus to think about their situation? Or maybe if you don't want to answer yourself, what would Beuys say to them?

.

Well, I'm not quite

sure if I get it right. The intention of your question.

I think people are struggling with the fact so many people are now in

Mm-hmm.

in this in this position to do many, many experiments, try out new things.

Yeah

Maybe you can call it creative acts. Many of them. And they seem to be kind of there's almost a fatigue, like, you know, like I can do so many things at once and I don't know really what to focus on. What should I do?

Yeah, yeah, OK, exactly what I just said.

Yeah.

Artists are in this position. you have to, all have to train to accept that we are also in this position.

Yes, exact that that's exactly my question. So yeah.

We thought we are not in this position for decades, maybe for hundreds of years.

At least when we lost

Hmm.

nature as a partner and we have to maybe we have to come back to this idea that this is our planet and we are part of this planet. Maybe this is unhelpful at the horizon, something like a star, a sun or whatever that we can

that helps us to navigate that we are part of a wholeness that we at the moment try to control and by doing this we disturb our fundamentals.

Okay.

So maybe this is one thing but the patient or the

view on that I don't know. Actually, I cannot decide. I don't know. I'm overwhelmed about the possibilities and about the wrong that I did the whole time by

Hmm

trying. This is the necessary starting level. You cannot over jump that.

Sorry. And all the wonderful possibilities of AI forces us to

No that I mean.

Yeah.

realize that we are at that stage. We have to accept that we are on our knees. We are not standing yet.

Hmm.

We are just in the very beginning of being on our knees trying like...

a nine month old baby. We want to be a grown up person. We want to get up. We want to talk to all the other adults. We want to change. We want to have an impact on world. We want to be creative. We want all this, but we are still on our knees. We are on the ground.

a starting situation. mean, this is okay, that it's maybe not very honorable, but it is what we have to share and what we have to be open with. This is the

If.

pure source. It's not the failure. It's the proper situation where

We are overwhelmed. let's say intuition can come down into it. I mean, it sounds a little esoteric, but you have to invite the angel or your angels or whatever. You have to accept that you are only a part of all that which is too much.

And in that case, the possibilities, the wonderful possibilities that AI creates for you. And you are now the stupid one that should invest millions in one of these possibilities. And be clever. Choose the right one. Of course, that is the.

a crazy game. I need all to do

Mm-hmm.

that. need tons of people that have interests and are aware of the process. maybe still I'm not aware enough that what I want to decide means so much change in all people, in all my

colleagues in all my peers in my family in whatever it needs so much change and the process will Make it will help me, but I'm afraid I want to keep it. I don't want that much change Don't believe in the process. I'm not a believer you know and and I doubt it of course

Yeah.

Of course, mean it's easy to understand that

it seems to be very clever to be shy of a change.

Can I, you pointed out, I guess, part of the solution when people are overwhelmed, which is the, I guess, mindset, like the realization of the overwhelm and embracing possibility of change. There's a lot that is probably just going into the right kind of state of mind, I guess, that would really help. One intuition I think we share with Philippe is that often the, another part of the solution

for

the overwhelm is what we would call taste. Taste in the sense of, you know, when facing many options in front of you, this sort of like decisiveness of knowing that, this is the one I like and these ones are just waste of time, right? And I'm particularly curious in the context of AI today where we talk a lot about juniors, you know, people who entering a new profession, they haven't yet developed a strong sense of taste and they're just...

It's very tempting for them to just let AI make a lot of these decisions and maybe they will struggle to form their own, you know, taste, particularly in in a domain. I wonder if you think there's a real risk somewhere and like what, what in your mind is actually the process of like forming taste? What's the source of someone's taste?

We are again at the basic assumptions. I mean, if

I'm a white, elder person, male,

in Western Europe. I think nothing about that because I don't want to touch my privileges. I have so many chances that I don't want to risk. my taste is very limited. So if you ask me, personally me, I try

to involve myself into dangerous

Mm-hmm.

water, into deep water. my view is constantly on female person.

It's not necessarily that they are white. Because I really know that I don't know which privilege I have that I have an apartment that I am in a solid situation that I can pay almost my rent and so on.

that I with my

Mm-hmm.

deep voice make an impact wherever I, know, that my education, my family line helps me, you know, to bump off people in offices in wherever, you know. All this is not in my awareness. So I know that I have a blind spot there. So I...

My active will is move my head away from my paths that are made for me.

If.

And I try to go into that muddy area where I lose everything.

If I can follow up on this. I have noticed as soon as I mentioned the word taste, you thought about privilege. And I think there's a baggage in the word taste, right? Like people know taste is in a way it's a tool for oppression almost, right? It's a tool of normalization. It's like putting people in boxes. so obviously there's all these kind of negative aspects of taste essentially, if you're not aware of other people's taste.

I guess what I'm curious about is also like just the more almost like in a more technical sense, you know, the way a musician decides that, okay, I really like the drum to be like this and like that, right? It's something that's not really class specific in a way, right? I know, for instance, a lot of artists today, I worried that, you know, the streaming economy has already made it difficult for people to really form their own taste because, you know, there's an algorithm basically, you know,

deciding what they're going to hear, right? So people are not going through this exercise of really choosing or this exercise of, know, comparing and doing all this possible work, right? And today, again, like if you're like a songwriter and you don't particularly care for the drum, you're just going to let an AI write it for you, right? I feel there's a lot of similar situation in the workplace, for instance, right? Or everywhere in life where there's

.

a real question about where would people kind of...

goes through the process of forming their own preferences versus just kind of letting AI more and more in control. Is it something you see yourself as a possible risk as well?

Sure, it will change us. I mean, I'm using

Instagram, I'm using Spotify. I'm proud that Spotify is naming me as a

very exotic person because I have 500 last year, 517 different styles or whatever they call it. I don't have this, I hear drum and bass and that's it. And I'm the

Yeah.

youngest Spotify user in my family.

If you ask me, if I... Yeah. And I think, okay, poor, wow. What does it say about me? I don't know. Obviously, I'm not easy to put in a box. Okay, thank you. to love my beloved ones.

Yeah.

Am I too shy to have a taste, to be clear with what I want? Is it a lack of aggressive clearness? Here's my border. I don't know. I think my try at the moment, ask me next week.

This week, now, I think I try to involve myself instead of using a taste as a border of a friend where you can find me. Of course, I shave myself not every day, but...

Sometimes every day, sometimes not. Okay, it's not a good example. You know, you get me always.

I accept the need of brushing my teeth. I accept several things

There will be some constants. Yeah, some things are going to be constant.

as part of my life.

But I'm curious about the other side of whatever. And of course, you can easily get me. Give me an interesting music track or send me two names of your favorite musicians and I will follow the next days. But doing that,

I will lose myself, of course. It's the same thing as Philipp mentioned, the possibility that AI creates and I have to decide which one we go for. it's the same. I'm lost and I have to sleep. I need time to rest. I want to separate myself. So it's a new development. I try to save my...

privacy, at least when I sleep, that I have some hours where I really sleep and not reachable or whatever. We switch off all

Okay.

the devices. Okay, so if someone is dying,

Maybe f so

will be dead tomorrow too, not now.

Hopefully. Otherwise it would be weird. maybe following up on on on Bruno's question, because I think there is a bit of context. So the the the tech industry is now asking itself basically so far we have been focused on the implementation, on the technical parts, but this seems to be you know going okay. We can automate it now. So what's next? Right? And leading voices in the tech world are now calling for taste

you

as the next

constraint. That's I think is one of the reasons what Bruno asked as well. I mean to just to give you two quotes maybe from Greg Brockman. Taste is a new core skill. then there was also Paul Graham that said prediction in the age in the AI age taste will become even more important when anyone can make anything. The big differentiator is what do you choose to make? so if you know if you if you look at that basically it almost frames taste as a skill that

Okay.

you need to now adapt to basically. How

would you respond to that?

I would say it's

too easy. mean, it's too obvious or too easy. I mean, you can go for that and a big group will be, you will match a lot of people or a lot of needs in that area. nothing is wrong with that.

But it's not my field. Or if you ask me for coaching teams and for meeting executives in that difficult situation how to decide or not to decide, then my help is not go for taste. Sorry, this is not my...

my balloon, my star or whatever, you know, to help him.

Yeah.

Can you maybe help us clarify what's the alternative? So the taste option is to say that, okay, you just hire people with good taste in UX or taste in whatever, and they just design nice things. So that would be taste. The alternative, guess, is more, what, healthy organization, better decision process. Like what's the alternative to just hiring some sort of creative director that designs everything?

Maybe I'm too stupid. I'm

not thinking in this dialectic alternatives. I think we want to solve...

problems or we want to decide in a good way and good is already something we have to define then. Is it good for planet? Is it good for the next generation? Is it good for my family? Is it good for all people on the planet? Do I accept if I just

Yeah.

want to get my children on a good education path and forget the rest of the world, then I start to come into my trouble field. so for me, this is too simple. I would say it's helpful to match

98.5 % of whatever is good with that. of course, in a medical sense, the optimization of all these processes, what's very good, I I'm not in that contradiction to that. So the alternative is not to go into

another direction but to accept that I'm a human person.

alike and different to all the others. you know, I can go with what is similar to you, Philipp, and to you, Bruno, that helps us to feel good together. This is necessary for me. I need that. But it's more interesting to get clear why we have differences.

And that is then another perspective on life. And it could be clever to use you both to get a new impact on what is possible for me.

.

So my taste is let's

Okay.

ask people in Eastern Congo to that question.

or in to that question.

Yeah.

Which I think you're you're interested you're raising an interesting point

because obviously all of these models that exist today are drained on a corpus of work. And it I mean it has been shown and it's known that they clearly represent a certain type of judgment, discernment, whatever you want to call it exactly, that reflects not the planet, but obviously a subset of the people on this planet. maybe coming back to the initial point because also you don't want to take too much up of your time. the double agent. maybe you can play it the bit of double agent for us now, if you if you're up for it.

do you see so the question is the following. Artists are obviously also playing with with AI. We have had one guest actually, a musician basically, that was exploring it. And one case he actually gave is that it's amazing for him because he can get all of this technical knowledge that before he would have needed to look for a long time. So here's the question. In your role as observing what happens with artists, being involved also with the struggles they go through, what kind of interesting

things

do you see happen because of AI that was not possible before? If any.

If any. I mean, the speed is there. It's an old word. And now it goes into all these

creative people also. They also accept now the speed.

As you mentioned, your musician, it took him maybe not ages, but days to work out a specific sound or a specific rhythm or whatever. now he just... And we

you

had that already. I remember the days when my lovely...

jazz rock group, the drummer.

opened that he uses also a drum machine. And I thought, what? Yeah. I was in the same situation like the audience with Bob Dylan in the

Yes. God. The world is ending.

electric guitar. And he was easy with it. He said, you know, I have the drum machine and I have my abilities and they

add to each other. okay, it was not about speed. It was about more useful variations. so I hope and I see your example with this artist, this musician, that it's not only about time. I'm quicker with a solution. But I have

interesting variations that I can

Hmm.

choose. And okay, now we are again how I come to choose and chooses and is it a taste and whatever. I guess that your musician is interested in the strangeness that AI is giving him at the moment.

I don't know if in a year he's still in it, maybe he's teaching it then. Others. Great. Yeah. But let me wait for his pupils.

Hmm.

Are they really going with the master of AI music variations or are they blocking after a while after they got their BA?

Okay.

credits, they kick off the old master of AI music making. guess that there is also in you and me and in Bruno this anarchistic, I don't want

to be only part of a possible world. I want the impossible.

parallel to all my needs of security and safety and tenderness and whatever. There is a little bit of an

Hmm.

anarchistic impact and in combination with humbleness you get this intuition. This intuition of, okay, I use it now,

Okay.

I don't use it later. Whatever it is. I kissed the girl.

Figuring it out.

today, hopefully. I try. whatever happens then. And okay, you know what I mean? The

Hehehe.

preferences

Yes.

are in a shift. And of course

It's not static.

AI is pressing these preferences because my taste is

Now it's an everyday taste. I go to Instagram and I see what I get from my profile, I realize, okay, this is all alike or more or less alike. So how can I break through the next level? I mean, maybe not through

Okay.

Instagram. Maybe I have really to meet people again.

I mean, you know, maybe it's not possible only to talk on a video call with you. Maybe we really have to sit around in a boring coffee shop and drinking our espresso and realizing that we are dreaming of this bitter espresso

Yeah

that we got.

whatever, 20 years ago in Spain or whatever. Taste is, the preferences of taste are really under pressure.

I have one quick follow up on, you've talked about humbleness a few times. It seems to be kind of a recurring theme where you seem to celebrate how AI is forcing us to realize that we have to be humble. It's helping us realize we don't know which of these possibilities to pursue and so on. But at the same time, I guess one of the common danger that people have identified is how

when

an individual is interacting with charge GPT or equivalent kind of products, they can be quite deceptive and they can give people the false impression of being an expert in any area. In many ways, they can boost your ego in a way that is maybe not good for you. As someone who seems to be a bit of an expert of that kind of exercise of being more humble, how would you...

you

How would you want these products to change? What do you think could the AI company do to maybe avoid that sort of trap? Is there something you would like to see the AI industry in a way do to avoid that sort of...

Do you know all these sub lines?

behavior.

Ask your doctor in all cases. can make it longer and no one is reading it anymore.

Yeah

Ha ha.

It's

Mm-hmm.

dangerous. I mean, you know that already. and you're accepting the danger in that case. mean, and of course, because you want, still, you want power over.

I mean, or parts of me. Let's talk about me. Of course, in a way, there are parts that want control.

And at least every first month I have to pay the rent. And it would be nice not always to struggle to get that first step

Mm-hmm.

per month. OK, but there you have this situation of...

Yeah, blockage. mean, for me it blocks me. But again, I try to jump and still I do it. I jump, I pay the rent. I go through this fixed circumstances. I'm not able to change it in a complete way. I'm going with that as well.

.

So, yeah, is it answering your?

I have a last qu s sorry, Bruno, you first.

Yes, go ahead.

Okay, I I have one last and th this is maybe a short question. you referenced Beuys If you would advise people where should they go if they want to learn about him, about his approach, his understanding of art, the process maybe, where would you s where would you point them?

them to Kassel to see the 7000 Oaks project. 7000 trees actually, different, not only Oaks. But there for me it was an enormous challenge. 1982 it was my first documenta

I was 22 or whatever, a biker, a motorcyclist, and I was there to see big paintings and in front of the main exhibition hall there were 7,000 big enormous stones. And I was really shocked.

mean that this artist is blocking the whole place forever because it was obviously impossible to get rid of these stones again.

Mm-hmm.

So many big stones right in the center of the city. I

Okay.

I was really pissed on the one hand. On the other hand, I was aware that

There was this impossible task that this artist, Joseph Beuyser, I saw him in front of the first stone.

that was out of that line vertical in the ground and to that there was a tree planted, the first oak. And I saw him there, but I was too angry, too nervous, too shy, too afraid to confront him or me, myself, to him and to say, what are you doing there? Guy, this is an...

impossible thing. You never get rid of that. And then you die, and the people, have that spouts here in the city. I mean, how crazy. And nowadays, it took five years. That was the plan. He died over it. Actually, he died over it. But the project

Mm-hmm.

itself finished.

by the society, by the people of the DIA Art Foundation, New York. mean, there were plenty of people

Hmm.

involved to plant this 7,000 trees into the city of Kassel with the stones, which were so enormously important in the very beginning.

And nowadays, you have difficulties to find them because they go into the ground year by year. During the winter, they are sinking into the

Hehe.

ground. And the trees, are enormously big nowadays. So you are not sure if this little thing there at the bottom of the tree is still important and is maybe part of the 7,000 oak.

project and so on and so on. So this is a wonder, a real one, and it's a social interaction piece. It happened because one person had this intuition to do so. It was against administration

jungle. We want city forests instead of city administration. mean, in German it's more funny. Stadtverwaldung statt Stadtverwaltung. But okay, take it

Yeah.

like this and just go around and

see in all the areas, kindergartens, schools, elderly people, they all were interested to get a tree. And it was, of course, expensive to do so, to plant it, to bring the stone there, and so on. Big action. it happened, a wonder. And the second thing is the last one. It's maybe not the very last, but the

almost last speech that he did, a Lehmbruck prize that he won shortly before he died. And he spoke about, "Schütze die Flamme" - "Save the Flame".

And just listen to it. Maybe you should listen twice or three times and just get the sound. Maybe you don't have to understand it in a proper way. It's German. Maybe I can help. And again, listen to the that

is broken. I mean, it's a broken old white person.

male Joseph Beuys and he died some days, maybe 10 days or 15 days later. So just let it get an impact on you and maybe you need the translation, you get it via AI, but let it just go drop into your soul.

Very impressive.

I thank you.

Okay.

It's really a pleasure and hope

First, Konstantin thanks very much for being part of this.

that we meet

Thank you so much.

in person.

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